Free Speech Space with MJ

NZ1st Port Waikato candidate Casey Costello Interview. "Rejecting Co-governance, Hard on Crime

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mykeljon winckel: And welcome to another show with Free Speech Space with MJ. And I said that without even stuttering. I'm proud of myself. Try and say that one, Casey, at least five times in a row. See if you can get tongue-tied. We're interviewing Casey Costello today. Casey has a very interesting career for the past number of years and she has joined New Zealand First and she's going to be standing for the Port Waikato region. Congratulations Casey, that's awesome. I've watched you with a great amount of interest, we've talked before, we've seen you in e-local many times and it's nice to have the opportunity to interview you and talk about what's ahead.

Casey Costello: Thanks so much and thanks for all the work you do MJ, I really appreciate it.

mykeljon winckel: You're most welcome. Because really at the end of the day, free speech is so important. Free speech is, you know, if you don't have free speech, you don't have free thought, and you don't have a free country. So we're gonna be practicing the art of free speech today. Now, Casey, would you mind telling the viewers about a little bit about your history? Because, I mean, seriously, you've done such amazing work for the country, for the community, in every respect, and, you know, I mean, you offer so much.

Casey Costello: Oh, thanks, so I'm South Auckland, sort of did most of my work, lived most of my life and worked most of my life in South Auckland. I live in Pocono at the moment. So I'm definitely a port waikare girl. I've, I've come from my mum's Ngatiwai and Ngapuhi from up north where she lives at the moment. And my dad's descend from Anglo-Irish that came here in the 1860s. So I'm sort of New Zealander through and through. And I suppose my background has been that I had a 14-year career in New Zealand police, again mostly in South Auckland. And I left as a detective sergeant and vice president of the police association. So I was always an advocate and a delegate in lobbying for better outcomes, better opportunities, fairer deal for everyone. And when I left the police, it was kind of that, you know, sort of weird situation where you think you're not kind of qualified to do anything. And I kind of fell into just needing to work. So I kind of had really great opportunities to just expand my knowledge and worked in all sorts of areas and security and construction. I ran security in parliament for a few years. That was an interesting foray into politics. For the last seven years, I've worked with Don Brash to advocate for equality before the law through Hobson's pledge. And ironically, that sort of got us both labeled as being somehow racist and vilified to some extent. But as we've gone on, we've been proven that we were right. And the fears that we had about the direction we were heading has been. realised and so after seven years of banging on the door of the hallowed hall of the parliament and asking for a different hearing on issues, I've decided that maybe to make change you've got to be on the inside and I'm really honoured that New Zealand First have sort of taken me on board and given me the opportunity to make a difference. So yeah, that's kind of my journey to this point.

mykeljon winckel: You know, what has always amazed me, and I've seen this for many years, and a very, an advocate of what you've been saying with Don Brash and Hobson's pledge, is how can you be racist when there's one law for all? I don't get it. You know, I mean, what is, why can that be racist? What is up with that?

Casey Costello: I think the idea, and we've seen it, it's not just New Zealand, we've seen it broadly. This idea that the end justifies the means, that you can, if you think that your lofty ideals and your objectives are justified, then we can do whatever we want in order to achieve it. And we've seen how badly that's done through history. When you're glorified ideals, your vision for the world we should be justifies you doing bad things. And I think that's what we've got. We've got the situation that if you push back... And a big part of the reason why I stood up was this idea that we had individuals who were, you know, doing very well for themselves, claiming to speak for all Māori. And... And I knew they weren't speaking for all Māori. I knew that they weren't, and they weren't delivering better outcomes. And so I think when you push back on that narrative, people get a little bit scared that they're being exposed for not delivering what they promised they were gonna deliver. And I think that's where they become defensive and throughout the world, the best form of defense is attack. So if you can't defend your position, then you'll attack everyone else. for pushing back and I think that's what we've suffered from.

mykeljon winckel: Yeah, and I think maybe throwing a bit of, you know, well, that's a voting issue. We'll go with that. You know, I mean, it seems to be that, you know, politics has lost its way in some respects. That, you know, they think about the vote more than what the people want, throwing out the candy, you know. So,

Casey Costello: Yep, yep,

mykeljon winckel: and that's

Casey Costello: very

mykeljon winckel: why

Casey Costello: much

mykeljon winckel: I'm really

Casey Costello: so.

mykeljon winckel: interested. That's why I'm interested in talking to you today about this. But now, why, why New Zealand first?

Casey Costello: I've actually known Winston for a long time. I have great respect for him. So my family come from Ngātiwai, which is Winston's background. My mum went to school with, you know, my mum and my aunties went to school with his older sisters. And so there's a strong connection that I've known him. But I think that the... The thing that resonates the most with New Zealand First is they have consistently committed to the concept that we are New Zealanders first and foremost. In my very first speech that I gave for Hobson's Pledge in 2016, I said I'm first and foremost New Zealander. And I think that connection is that honest dialogue that you can say... We all come from different places and Winston's always been true and committed on that subject. And that's where I think I felt that I connected the most. That that wasn't a Johnny come lately to this position, it was always been the position. And what struck me when I really felt that I had made the right decision when I was at New Zealand First Conference, and they, you know, the genuine diversity of the group, of the audience, young, old, Māori, Pacifica, just, you know, new immigrants, people that have been here for a long time, I really felt that I'd connected and the fact that there's been a large number of Māori who've reached out to me since I've stood and given me encouragement and given me support. that are New Zealand First supporters and that to me means that I've found my political home. This is where I'm supposed to be.

mykeljon winckel: Yeah, well, I tell you that resonates with, I think, with a large number of New Zealanders. And that is they want to be all treated as New Zealanders and no division. You know, I mean, I think I mean, that when I talk to people all the time, that one of the things that really rubs them up the wrong way is the fact that we've got such racial division now where

Casey Costello: Yep.

mykeljon winckel: we didn't have. You know, and they can see where this is leading, but we're more about that. We've got a few more things we can talk about with that. But so why didn't you choose one of the other parties? Let's say one that springs to mind because of something I saw today in the in the papers was Act. Now, Act have come out and said they won't work with Winston Peters. What the heck? I mean,

Casey Costello: I just...

mykeljon winckel: aren't what what? I mean, shouldn't they? It's well, hang on. Shouldn't he be working for the people of the country?

Casey Costello: And it seems ironic to me that it goes back to the play the ball, not the man. You know, like it seemed ironic. But it also seemed ironic for a party that's so strongly advocating for democracy, is suggesting that no matter who votes for them, no matter how much a percentage they get in, no matter that they are prepared to disregard what, you know, you know, if there's people willing to vote a party in, then they are there as a democratic right and should be considered and respected because the people in there are just representing the people that voted them there. And I can't see how you can ask, you know, take a stand like that and when you're advocating for democracy and defending democratic process. But the other aspect of it, I suppose, is that I actually did, in 2011, I actually stood as a candidate for ACT. Not seriously, my brother was very involved with ACT and he told me that they needed names on the ballot. So I got put my name down. I think I got Mangere was my seat. So I did align, like I felt that. But what I did know was that in 2017 election and 2020 election, tried to get ACT to make a stand on equality before the law. The position was that it wasn't an issue that moved votes, so they weren't going to campaign on it. So regardless of whether they felt it was right or wrong, they weren't going to make any statements about it because it wasn't going to win votes. And I think when you campaign on that basis, it's not about what you believe. So the question for me is... what happens at the next election. If it's not a vote-winning issue at that point, do you just give up the fight? Yeah, so I think that's why I felt strongly that New Zealand First was a good fit.

mykeljon winckel: And did you think about going for national at all, or do you find that national and labour are just a little too close, cosying

Casey Costello: Yeah, I think

mykeljon winckel: up to each other?

Casey Costello: what was it saying? I think it was Kim Slater the other day said they're two sides of the same coin. And I think with national you're kind of dancing on the head of a pin. And I think that you need some pretty strong personalities to pull national where they need to be if they're going to form the next government. You know, they're talking about no co-governance of public services, co-governance of natural resources will be fine. They talk about co-governance being successful, but they can't actually tell you where it's been successful. You know, they cite things like the Yuru-Utas and the Waikato River Authority, but they're not actually models of co-governance. And, you know, if you look at the Yuru-Utas, they haven't been successful. So nationalists, they're saying enough. to mitigate some damage, but I don't think they're saying enough. That's going to really do the change of direction that we need. And that's when you've got to admire personalities and experience and expertise and strength of character to make a difference. And nobody can say that Winston hasn't been able to make his voice heard. And New Zealand First has made really effective changes. and is a force to be reckoned with. And as much as we talk strongly about needing a change, we also need a bit of that expertise, because we've got a lot of young people who've never been, and ACT has never had a ministerial position. You know, they've been around, but they haven't been in cabinet. So, you know, this is where we need to be pulling together, not ripping each other apart.

mykeljon winckel: Totally. I mean, I was quite astounded by seeing that today. You know, I mean, the nation has never been, I believe, in such a worse state than it is now.

Casey Costello: Mm.

mykeljon winckel: You know, I think we're on a knife's edge, really, heading down a... Well, I can't even see the ambulance waiting at the bottom of the cliff. That's how bad

Casey Costello: Yeah,

mykeljon winckel: I think it is.

Casey Costello: and we're being forced to be distracted by a whole bunch of issues. That it's like, you know, we're worrying about what colour the curtains are going to be when we haven't even got good foundations on the house, you know, like it's just, there's so many building blocks we need to finish and we're not, we've just got to get back to some real fundamental basics about what we are as a country. And I This infighting and this petulance and stuff is just the last thing we need.

mykeljon winckel: Totally. It seems to be almost like, you know, controlled opposition, so to speak, isn't it?

Casey Costello: Mm.

mykeljon winckel: Pulling us away. But look,

Casey Costello: Yeah.

mykeljon winckel: you're going to be standing for, you know, the Port Waikato region. So let me ask you, Port Waikato, what will you bring to Port Waikato? Currently we've got Andrew Bailey in there in the seat for National. And what are you going to bring to the table that's going to make people want to vote for you?

Casey Costello: I mean first and foremost they're going to get Andrew Bailey anyway, like it's you know it's a given, he's not you know they're not they're still going to get their national candidate. What they get with me is I know this area, I know the real fear people are living in, you know that communities are living in, I know the frustration the police are feeling, I know the damage that this division is causing communities and And, you know, even all these years on, we're still suffering from the fact that we all got ripped apart by the creation of the super city with ridiculous boundaries put in place that just made no sense to anybody. And we're half in one camp and we're half in the other camp and we're just, it's just crazy stuff. You know, my dad was a publica, a counselor. You know, I remember the Franklin council was effective, efficient, like we've got things done. I mean, now for goodness sake, we've got a boundary through the middle of Wauku. I mean, it's just a middle of Tuakau. It's just nonsense stuff. So what I think is really important is to have local representation that really knows the community and knows what's important. This isn't about standing to make a point, I'm standing to make a difference. Like this is... really important staff and you need somebody that's going to be on the ground that knows this. You know I've done building developments and I've bought councils and multiple councils because you split across things. I've seen what is real for people, you know the real stuff and this co-governance when you're going to centralise control You're going to take it away from local councils. You're going to take it away from your local wards. That is enormous. And this Resource Management Act, the three legislations that they're bringing in, we're at the back end of the Auckland City Council, we're on the top end of Waikato District Council, we're just sit in the middle. If you don't have strong representation in Port Waikato, our voice will be lost. We have to have someone that absolutely is committed to what's best for here and won't let us be ripped apart by sitting in the middle of a couple of councils and just being distracted by stuff that is taking everything to Wellington. And we need to fight back from that.

mykeljon winckel: Well, that's why local representation on so many levels is so important. Because

Casey Costello: Mm.

mykeljon winckel: once it gets to Wellington, it's at Crickets, you

Casey Costello: Yeah.

mykeljon winckel: know, the silence of Crickets. You know, you don't get anything back. And I know that's sort of Crickets are pretty noisy, but they don't really say anything. I can't think that's

Casey Costello: Yeah.

mykeljon winckel: what I was referring to. But also you've you bring a lot to the table for crime control too. That's very important that you understand, you know, what's required to make a community safe. I'd go for that as

Casey Costello: And

mykeljon winckel: well.

Casey Costello: that's the part too, you know, I mean, we just had the latest one was it yesterday. It's to generate more volunteers to, you know, be the eyes and ears out on the street. Well, you know, I've how does that work? You've got volunteers out being the eyes and ears watching stuff happen. There's still no cops to go and attend when they ring up to say, yeah, I've just seen someone breaking into a shop. If there's no cops to go and attend, are they really expecting the volunteers to go and catch them? You know, what difference does more eyes and ears make? And the level of bureaucracy that's hit the police, cops are frustrated. You know, it's just insane stuff where you've got so much time being spent justified what you're doing and what you should be doing to deliver stats back to Wellington. instead of actually getting them out doing what they want to do, which was going out and catching bad guys. And that was, you know, that's fundamental. I mean, we used to actually stop cars. We used to stop people. You know, we'd actually see what they were up to while they're driving around the streets in the middle of the night. You can't even do that anymore. And to get people before the courts, they're so caught up in, you know, we're going to tougher penalties and stuff like this. What about getting them to the courts in the first place, getting them to face up for their justice? You know, we've got restorative justice, we've got alternate justice, we've got all these things. We've just got to get back to the basics. And that's what New Zealand First is about. You know, it's just getting back to basics, getting back to the fundamentals that we know work and have worked in the past. Whether it's your economy, whether it's your race relations, whether it's your education, whether it's hospitals. We've got to get back to basics and you know... the people on the ground doing the job and letting them get ahead and do their jobs because they know how to do it and get the bureaucrats out of the way.

mykeljon winckel: Absolutely. Now Casey, why do you think the crime is so out of control now?

Casey Costello: I think you've got multi-levels of issues. You've got one where we have become a society that is so worried about the circumstances of the offender, we've forgotten about the victim. We've absolutely forgotten about the victim. We don't listen anymore. We're not available anymore to listen. So when you make the offender... We're so worried about the offender circumstances. We're so worried about their background and their concerns. They know that. They know that they're not, the likelihood of them actually facing charges of actually getting to court is so slim that why wouldn't you? And then when you're kind of being glorified for being a victim yourself because you're an offender, because you're committing crime, then... You know, you're almost motivated to do it because, you know, we're a society that we, you know, the bigger your grievance, the more we'll do for you. You know, if we can, if you can create a victim narrative, the more we will do for you, the more we will celebrate your bravery. And this is a distraction that we're not focusing on staff. And if you go back to, you know, even when I was in the police, we used to talk about broken windows policy, which is something that they did in America, which was zero tolerance. You know, if you saw a broken window, you dealt with it, you got it done, a piece of graffiti, you got on top of it, you didn't let people get away. That was what meant that you, if you, if you are hard on the little stuff. then the bigger stuffs becomes a bit scarier because if they're going to do that for you, the little stuff, imagine what they'll do for the big stuff. These stuff have been proven. They've done it. They've shown it. They've proven that this can work. We've got to think about the basics. We're not reinventing the wheel. And if anybody reads Thomas Selle, who's a bit of an idol of mine, American economist, he talks about this idea that when you reduce policing, because it's not fair on poorer communities and what not fair, you actually create worse circumstances. You create worse circumstances for the people who aren't committing crime, that aren't doing anything wrong. They become more desperate and more vulnerable because you're not targeting the crime, you're making more victims. And that's the part that... So I think it's a combination that we've got. We've got too worried about the offenders. and we're not breaking the cycle. We've made too much about gathering stats and distracting from core business. And we're not listening to the communities. We took the police out of the communities. We closed police stations, so they weren't 24-7 police stations anymore. We did all the stuff that kind of took that community connection, and we've got to get back to that. And I think that's the part that... We've become so tolerant. We've kind of, you know, we've become a society that you can do an aggravated robbery, but it's okay if nobody got hurt. You know, it's not so bad because nobody got hurt. Will you tell that to the person who was robbed? You know, they're traumatized. You know, we used to make front page news for an aggravated robbery. Now it doesn't even make the news. It's just not even, you know, in... And I'm not harking back to, you know, the good old days. I'm saying that we have to go back to that. We have to be intolerant of the crime. We have to say it's not enough. We have to stand up for it. And that tough on crime stuff is not just rhetoric. It's gotta be real. You've gotta make a stand.

mykeljon winckel: Casey, I'm hearing something like common sense. I mean, that's really good.

Casey Costello: I'm sorry.

mykeljon winckel: And not only that, another word that comes to mind is accountability. My word, those are two words that I haven't heard for a

Casey Costello: Yeah.

mykeljon winckel: while. Man, that would be great to see that right across the board, wouldn't it?

Casey Costello: Yep.

mykeljon winckel: If you were to look at this current government accountability, my word, that would be great to get some of that. That's another thing I hear on a daily basis, that this government currently is just not accountable for anything that they've done. Nothing. And it's just, people are just pulling out their hair. Businesses are closing left, right and centre. We've got... You know, we're completely de-industrialized as a nation. What do we manufacture anymore? They're going after the backbone of our country, which is our farmers. And now they're, you know, I mean, they're going to close that down as well and reduce production and bring in these ridiculous climate change emergency things. Well, look around. Hello, today was minus two degrees or what it was. Was that anything to do with climate change? I totally not. You know, I mean, whether you're a climate... Change believer or denier the thing is you've got just look around are you seeing any evidence of it right here right now? You know sorry. I went on a soapbox for a moment.

Casey Costello: Yeah.

mykeljon winckel: I'll come back to you, but the thing is that one of the other areas which is Incredibly frightening is that the therapeutics bill that's just passed and I want to come back to that While I just think of it That's a really important aspect and a lot of people are looking at that and saying again lacking complete common sense

Casey Costello: Yeah.

mykeljon winckel: and we're looking at a government that wants to go with making money for overseas corporates like Big Pharma and the fourth industrial complex as opposed to doing something really good for the people I mean come on vitamin C you can't you want what's going to happen to vitamin C under this therapeutics bill or let's talk about lavender I mean how harmless can you be right anyway we'll come back to that I want to talk to you about the five policy planks for NZ first. Protecting freedom and democracy, rejecting racism and separatism. My word, that almost sounds like a utopia where we are right now. Over to you.

Casey Costello: And it's just simple stuff, you know, it's, and that's where you go back to from New Zealand's first point of view, you know, they've got credentials in this space, you know, they've done, they've done good things. I mean, they rejected their Humatau buyout, they did stuff that was willing to stand out. I mean, they took Trevor Mallard to court for the trespass notices that he put out for, you know, they, They stand on principle and that's the stuff where you go back to that kind of fundamentals of what's right, what's logical and what's right. And this distortion of the treaty, this using the treaty to push a political narrative. And the worst thing is doing things that nobody asked for. Nobody voted for it. It wasn't anybody's manifesto. It wasn't anybody campaigning on it. It's just been delivered. without any democratic process and that's the stuff that they're standing for is pulling back to that accountability and you know the influence of the World Health Organization, those sort of things, this surreptitious loss of our sovereign identity that's the stuff that we need to make a strong stand on and you know that's going to take more than you know, a nice speech and a, you know, it's about really knowing how to fight and to pull people back into line and hold them to account. And that's, you know, that's what, you know, we know that New Zealand First is able to do.

mykeljon winckel: Now, I mean, looking at the last three years, particularly the last three years, because, you know, we've had nothing like the last three years ever in New Zealand history, I don't believe. I'm seeing a globalist government. That's what I'm seeing. I remember seeing Adern talking at a Gates Foundation symposium, SGA's into domestic policy of the Agenda 2030. She said that, she actually said that, it came out of her mouth. I couldn't

Casey Costello: And

mykeljon winckel: believe what I was hearing.

Casey Costello: but let's not forget, she's the woman that smiled at the TV crammers and said, yes, we've got two standards of citizenship in New Zealand. That's the type of person that we're dealing with, the type of government that we're dealing with, because that legacy continues. You know, this adoption of the United Nations Declaration for the Rights of Indigenous People, that's a UN declaration. It places no obligation on a sovereign country. Like, there's no obligation at all. But Labour has led us to believe that we have an obligation to realise it. National signed us up to it, let's not forget. And Labour has told us that we have to implement it, that a United Nations declaration, not a treaty, not anything, it's totally outside the bounds of our sovereign. you know, the sovereign authority of our New Zealand Parliament, and yet we've been told we have to, we have to implement it. And that's appalling. And so those are the types of influences that they're real, they're not conspiracy stuff, they're real. They know that the declaration holds no power, so that's why they've been pushing to get it into legislation. And that's where your co-governance stuff has come from. the introduction of that idea of the devolving of our democratic authority by putting people into authority that have not been elected that are unaccountable to the people and giving them authority. And whether it's 50% authority or 50% say, that's just wrong. And people are missing the point of co-governance. They're missing the idea that it sounds like we're just going to sit around a table and agree on things. Well, the fact that Winston exists, that Shane Jones exists, that we've got voices that are saying, no, hang on, you don't speak for me, shows that you can't just say we're going to appoint Māori to make decisions and think that all Māori are supporting that agreement. The only way to ensure that the people who are making decisions bear a cost for getting it wrong is by being elected. And as soon as you give authority to people that aren't elected, we have lost our democracy and we have the worst, we've lost the ability to kick them out when they get it wrong. And that's the reality of this whole agenda.

mykeljon winckel: Well it is, I mean you've seen it coming for a while. I mean, I've seen much commentary coming through, including yourself and Don and many, many others, talking about the Māori seats in council. You can't

Casey Costello: Mm.

mykeljon winckel: vote them in, you can't vote them out, yet they have the ability to actually veto anything that's coming on the table. So if that's not control, what isn't?

Casey Costello: And that was the, you know, we fought quite hard to stop the Canterbury Regional Council and Ngāi Tahu Representation Bill. When it became law, the irony of that was first that you were having unelected appointments to council. So that was the first step. Then the MPs that were campaigning for it and advocating for it celebrated the fact that this was just the beginning. They said, Categorize in the House, it's an enhanced art, it's they said, this is just the beginning. This unelected representation on council was just the beginning. They set it on record. But the most ironic part that they were campaigning and standing in the House celebrating the third reading of this bill and it being passed into law, they stood there celebrating this. But when they gave speeches, they gave speeches on the basis that they said, democracy had failed Māori. Now the irony of Māori MP after Māori MP after a Māori MP speaking up on a bill that, and saying democracy had failed, how did they get there? How did they get that voice? They are 26% of our current parliament. How can you argue that democracy has failed Māori? And

mykeljon winckel: Well,

Casey Costello: yet

mykeljon winckel: certainly.

Casey Costello: that's what

mykeljon winckel: And

Casey Costello: we're told to believe.

mykeljon winckel: if you look at the population, I mean, we're talking the figures of Māori is less than 14%. And what is actually, you know, I mean, I don't want to get into this, but I will now. Okay. What is a Māori? You know, I mean, at least I know what a woman is. I can say that.

Casey Costello: And that's

mykeljon winckel: Which is not

Casey Costello: the part

mykeljon winckel: like

Casey Costello: that...

mykeljon winckel: some of our parliamentarians.

Casey Costello: And that's what we get down to the issue with the health staff is that, you know, you have to create some causal link, you have to say, what is it about? You know, if you're if you're claiming Māori are performing badly in the statistics, I don't think anybody's arguing that it's because of your ancestry that you're having these issues. There's a whole range of drivers that are causing people to not reach their potential. that your ancestry isn't the stuff that causes you. There's a whole range of things, education outcomes, and those are the fundamentals at New Zealand First. It's one of the planks we're standing on, is to actually get back to those things that actually make a difference, ensuring that there's access to good jobs, ensuring that there's an education system that allows individual kids to reach their potential, not distracted by education agendas that have nothing to do with whether you can read, write. and add. That's the stuff we've got to get back to if we're going to break the cycle.

mykeljon winckel: So you're actually saying you want to actually have an education system that teaches people and teaches them to have critical thinking rather than just learning compliance? Did I hear you say that?

Casey Costello: Yeah, I know, it's

mykeljon winckel: My

Casey Costello: a

mykeljon winckel: goodness!

Casey Costello: shocker.

mykeljon winckel: Yeah. Wow. My gosh. Oh wow. Okay. We're talking about the tackling of the cost of living. Now yesterday I went to the local supermarket and I felt like a bit of fish. I didn't buy any. Snapper was $64 a kilo. Unbelievable.

Casey Costello: Yep.

mykeljon winckel: that to me was that was like the effing fish.

Casey Costello: Mm.

mykeljon winckel: Sorry, I might have spoken out of turn there,

Casey Costello: Yeah.

mykeljon winckel: but I couldn't believe it. Casey, $64 a kilo for snapper, and we know it's the Labrador of the sea. What's going on?

Casey Costello: And that's,

mykeljon winckel: What do you think?

Casey Costello: you know, I was actually listening to Shane Jones, he spoke at a meeting in Morrinsville last night and Shane was talking about the attack that he had on the supermarkets, you know, he called out supermarkets a long time ago and was, you know, left to hang out to dry like he was mad. And now everybody's going, oh, hang on, there might be a problem here. I think there's some real, there's stuff that you've got to do. You've got to look at solutions. And when you live in Wellington and you work in Wellington and that's where you're based, they talk about that we're out there in the communities and we're hearing what people are saying. Well, they can't be hearing because they're not doing anything. And you've got to look at... There's a whole range of factors that are going on here that's causing things to get out of control. And when you're putting on so much pressure on the food producers, so much bureaucracy, so much compliance issues, and then get surprised that it's getting so hard to produce food in this country, people are giving up. And you're right. And it's looking at options, it's looking at things like GST on food. It's looking at things that are practical, having the courage to look at things and having a new analysis. Not just knock everything that people are asking for and dismissing them, but actually listening to what people are saying and go, let's look at this, let's seriously look at this. And they're not. You know, I know best and I'm going to tell you what you're going to do. what's important to you and I'll make decisions. But at least New Zealand First is prepared to look at things that might actually help you feed your family and put things on. And the fundamentals, if you want to make a society more productive, is to actually do the stuff that makes people productive, get them out there, get them working, get them earning. Just being practical and that's what I think New Zealand First is saying in there. And it's an important plank that costs a living.

mykeljon winckel: Well, one of the things Casey is, you know, I mean you look at business, small business, it's the backbone of New Zealand, well it used to be. I'm seeing businesses close every day

Casey Costello: Mm-hmm.

mykeljon winckel: and it's frightening the level of businesses that are closing out there. I talk to a lot of business people and it is frightening, I've never seen anything as bad as what we're going through right now. after

Casey Costello: And.

mykeljon winckel: all these lockdowns and the high energy prices. I mean, for example, let's talk about Marsden Point just briefly. Now Marsden Point has a huge download, a downline of different products that's produced. One of them's bitumen. and that's why our roads are in such poor condition, is the fact that we don't have the right bitumen. We're importing it from India, and it doesn't stick on our roads. I mean, hello, and of course, you've got contractors coming in, and they're saying, well, it's gonna cost X amount to fix the road. Oh, no, we'll just have to patch it. because there's no dollars

Casey Costello: and

mykeljon winckel: for it. Well, last time I looked at the price of petrol and calculated how much road tax has been taken out of it. You know, where's that going? Not on the roads. Then you have a look for the farmers and the growers with Marsden Point, there's no downline for fertilizer. And hang

Casey Costello: Yep.

mykeljon winckel: on a second, was there any planning put in place where there could be an alternative for getting fertilizer from somewhere else? Or producing fertilizer? the farmers and the growers out because let's think about it that's our base of our food chain you know

Casey Costello: Yep.

mykeljon winckel: I mean this is coming to a point where this is beyond ridiculous This is now looking, no it's not insanity, no, because I mean when you look overseas, you see they're doing the same thing in the Netherlands, they're doing it in many, many other countries, America, doing the same where they're closing down the food chains, closing down the sources of food production and they wanna bring in bugs. Now in Netherlands

Casey Costello: and

mykeljon winckel: they've got four major corporates right now that are now producing bug meal, that's cricket meal, and they've actually passed a law in the EU saying that they can add it into food products. I mean

Casey Costello: And

mykeljon winckel: seriously,

Casey Costello: this, yeah,

mykeljon winckel: what

Casey Costello: this is

mykeljon winckel: do

Casey Costello: the.

mykeljon winckel: you... The land of milk, honey and crickets. Has the same

Casey Costello: Yeah,

mykeljon winckel: ring, does it?

Casey Costello: and the thing is that New Zealanders, I mean that's why we're just so important to protect our food producers and let's have some proper solutions. But you know on that you know Winston was up in Whangarei on the weekend and said that you know under New Zealand First, Marsden Point will come back online. We cannot allow ourselves to be so reliant on overseas You know, we have to open that up. We have to make sure that we have the ability to operate independently. We just can't sit here waiting at the bottom of the world for everything to come to us. We have to be able to be, protect our autonomy. So that was Winston's big announcement on the weekend when he was up at Whangarei.

mykeljon winckel: Well, the thing is, it's just, again, I'm going to reiterate those two words, common sense and accountability. I mean, how much fuel do we actually have in our reserves? Does anybody know?

Casey Costello: Mm.

mykeljon winckel: Because I heard that it's, you know, well, let's say, I heard that it's around about two weeks. That's all we have. So if we miss a couple of tankers, they don't come because of whatever reason, we're out of gas, we're out of petrol, we're out of energy. You know what I mean? Two weeks? I mean, that's holding the country to ransom to a point of a breakdown. That's a tsunami, not just a breakdown. And

Casey Costello: And

mykeljon winckel: everybody depends on diesel. I mean, our country runs on diesel.

Casey Costello: You

mykeljon winckel: I

Casey Costello: know,

mykeljon winckel: mean, it's

Casey Costello: this

mykeljon winckel: ridiculous.

Casey Costello: electric car solution, I think we've got to kind of step back a little bit and think we've got a path here and we're at the end of it. We've got to go down a journey here. But it's this practical, like you say, it's the practical solutions. But one of the things which, again, you've got to admire New Zealand First for is digging and finding out the questions. Like... not being afraid to take on the supermarket, so you know the wine box inquiry, those sort of things, not being afraid to have to roll up your sleeves and fight to get to the truth. And when I was first talking about the coming of, you know, getting into politics and all those sort of things, one of the things that you come into, which I discovered when I left the police, was the ability to ask questions and to find answers, not just accept the first bureaucrat that works into your office and says this is how it is, but actually know the answers. That accountability thing is one of the big challenges, you know, to be able to ask the questions and keep asking the questions and demand the right information and not be blindsided because, you know, you've distanced yourself from what's really happening. You know, don't accept that something is happening, you know, when you haven't got the nous and the dedication to actually dig and dig and dig and find the right answers. And you know, I think as a track record, New Zealand First can hold its head up really high on that issue that, you know, they've never been bought, they've never been silenced, you know, as much as people have wanted to. You know, they've taken on the big fights and yeah, that's... that's really important I think as we move forward. If you're gonna get that accountability and hold people responsible, you're gonna need some serious muscle to make sure that happens. I think I'm on the winning horse with that regard.

mykeljon winckel: I really hope so because we need it desperately Casey. I mean as I said we're on the precipice of looking over a cliff and there's no ambulance at the bottom. It's as bad as that

Casey Costello: Mm-hmm.

mykeljon winckel: I think I really do. I'm not going to put fear in anyone but that's the reality on every single front. I mean, if we want to tackle the cost of living crisis, surely we need to ensure that the environment, the ecosystem for business to grow, to create opportunity, actually exists in New Zealand.

Casey Costello: Mm.

mykeljon winckel: Not leaving it to overseas interest, as you said before.

Casey Costello: Mm.

mykeljon winckel: And we can't, otherwise we're just going to become a globalist nation, where we're just providing employment. just for those companies that are allowed to operate here, that's, let me think, that will be on the members list of the World Economic Forum.

Casey Costello: And it's that experience, that expertise, that the people that have been around where when we were, we were self-sufficient, we were able to hold our own on the world stage, we were operating in the black, all of those sort of things, we've done it. And one of the greatest examples is, if you look at Ireland, the Republic of Ireland, They've done it. They have prioritized education. They've prioritized foreign investment in a manner that makes the country successful, not dependent, but successful. That's the stuff that we, you know, and education, like really getting back to the producing kids out of school that can do something, not... not tell you about how horrible your country is, but actually roll their sleeves up and produce as well and get in there and want to stay. We've become the country people want to leave.

mykeljon winckel: Very much so. You know, it's looking at the figures, the exodus that's happening now. It's only getting worse, you know, if we don't do something about it. Now, coming back to I'm going to come back to tackling the cost of living crisis, because that is probably, I think, the number one issue that people are going to be looking at New Zealand first and saying, well, what are you actually going to do about it? I mean, like people are going to say, I've got mortgage payments due. I've got, you know, I can't even afford to get food for my family. I've got energy prices that are spiraling out of control. I can't afford to run my car and the wages don't cover everything.

Casey Costello: Mm.

mykeljon winckel: And not only that, you've got the threat of not even being able to have a job soon because businesses are closing left right and center. So I think this is probably the biggest issue right now on New Zealand's lips. Wouldn't you agree?

Casey Costello: Yeah, and that's, I mean, one of the key aspects of what New Zealanders want to look at is that inquiry into the banking sector, you know, the interest rates, the way people are being impacted by that, the removal of GST off basic foods. But it's bigger than that because if you want to make the cost of living better, you think of the impact small businesses have. just on the compliance costs, just on the, you know, when you've got a crime wave that you've got and businesses, just a small tiny business is paying $900 a month, just in insurance, just in insurance because they're getting rem rated. just, you know, they can't stay open. And the loss of business when you're trying to rebuild your shop, the cost of the security presence to support the business community, all of that overhead cost is the stuff that's dragging us down that's making it really difficult to keep your business afloat. And then you just keep adding more and more bureaucracy into that process. You know, the... The difficulty of getting resource consents, the difficulty of all of those things are adding to the ability for you to get ahead and run your business and do well and be innovative and be smart. And we're not producing people that are. willing to get up and fight. We're producing people that we're telling you, the world's against you, that's really hard. We've lost aspiration and that's the stuff. If you're gonna tackle cost of living, it's not just about that one aspect. There's a whole range of things where you've gotta strengthen your resilience and you've gotta make people part of that solution, you know, be able to, you know, get better jobs, get, you know, get those opportunities and we're just not doing it, we're just not growing in any aspect. So I think it's, that's the sort of five plank creating opportunity is a big part of what New Zealand First are looking for. is yes, we want to analyze costs and we want to take costs out and we want to reduce overheads and all those sort of things. We just want to create opportunity and that's the stuff, building infrastructure, better education, those sort of things. And I know it's really hard and I try not to get caught up in the political speak, the rhetoric, but I don't see, and in my simple way of looking at things, I don't see that running a country is any different to running a business or running a household. You have to see it, you have to understand what you've got to do, and then you can fix it. And I don't think we've got a government that can see it. I don't think they're prepared to lift up the laundry basket lid and look at what's in there and go, look, how can I fix this? How can I clean this up? It's that plausible deniability thing. And I think that we've got to be brave enough to kind of look at everything and look at where the waste is going and look at what and hold people to account. I think there's real, you know, there's a real need for common sense and experience. As we go into this next government, I think that's what we're really needing to look at.

mykeljon winckel: You mentioned a few words, well one word in particular earlier on a few times, and that's sovereignty. Now, one of the major issues that I see creeping up more and more is because we've got a government right now, and governments that have been in before, leading us into a situation where we've got a government that is globally oriented. that is not really interested in the people or what's going on in the nation. They're talking about it's more important for them to have a global governance system. Now, currency, talking about sovereign currency. New Zealand currency is, well, as we know, is fiat. 1971,

Casey Costello: Yep.

mykeljon winckel: it went off the gold standard, and we've, at that point... our sovereignty left us. And we've been steam-rollering down to a point where it's part of the global agenda, the hegemony of the US dollar. Now, one would argue that we can't get our real sovereignty back until we can get our own gold-backed currency. Now, and that's because we're talking about banking reform. Currently, we have 3% of our nation's cash, sorry, 3% of our nation's money is cash. That's been controlled by the Reserve Bank, and the balances of that has been controlled by central banks. So, how can we have a government in control, a sovereign government, when we've only got 3% of sovereignty as far as our cash, and as we know, cash talks.

Casey Costello: Yeah, and that's

mykeljon winckel: What?

Casey Costello: a part of one of the objectives at New Zealand First is about this banking inquiry and working through what we've got, how our banking sector is working, those sort of things. I think it's important and that goes back to that, visibility, that willingness to look at what's actually going on. I think there's a lot of stuff that's going on that we've, I just keep, it's going back to the basics. And people have, you know, that importance of our sovereign identity, that importance of our parliament, you know, that unwritten constitution that we've got in New Zealand is pretty, you know, that's pretty unique. And it's probably the best system in the world. That ability that, you know, whatever this parliament does, whatever this government does, the next government... can kick it out, we have that protection. And when you look at what Australia is doing with the voice changing their constitution and putting the voice stuff in, that's really dangerous stuff because that's constitutional change. And we're lucky that whatever this government has delivered to us, whatever hospital pass we're inheriting when we come into the next government that forms, we have the ability to kick it all out. You know, we can say, you guys were nuts, and we can take back control. And that's, you know, when New Zealand Bears stood up and said we wanna take back our country, that's what we're talking about. That we want to take back all of that stuff that's drifting us away from who we are as a nation. And I think that's where we're heading. We need that.

mykeljon winckel: Well, it's pretty important. I think it's pretty important that we take control of our own currency again.

Casey Costello: Yeah.

mykeljon winckel: I mean, without that, we can't really have control of anything.

Casey Costello: Yeah, and

mykeljon winckel: Is

Casey Costello: it's.

mykeljon winckel: New Zealand First talking about bricks at all?

Casey Costello: No, the big

mykeljon winckel: joining

Casey Costello: issue

mykeljon winckel: bricks.

Casey Costello: is talking about ensuring we retain cash currency and that we have the ability to retain that folding notes and coins. That's the big one. And beyond that, it's a big job. We've got a lot to sort out.

mykeljon winckel: Oh, it's a big job, all right. But I'm encouraged to hear that you're looking at that because I've not heard one other party talking about that. I mean, what about CBDCs, the Central Bank Digital Currency? What's New Zealand's first stand on that? Because I know people are worried about that, this programmable

Casey Costello: That was the big

mykeljon winckel: currency.

Casey Costello: thing is to ensure that we retain the cash currency, that we don't lose that ability and that that's important. And I think it's really important.

mykeljon winckel: So is that saying that New Zealand First doesn't want to have CBDCs? They want to kick it out?

Casey Costello: So that's as far as I've got in terms of the policy statements is that was the we retain and that's part of that sovereign identity stuff that we retain our autonomy and that's the first step. Beyond that, I mean that's the part that you know in terms of what I said about finding out the answers, actually digging in and finding out the answers and finding what's going on. I think it's really important that we have Parliament that are willing to challenge the status quo.

mykeljon winckel: Absolutely.

Casey Costello: There was a quote that's been attributed to Winston quite a bit, and that's that when you come up against a movable object, you don't just keep banging into it. You've got to get it moving. And once you've got it moving, you can change direction. And I think that's what we need to do, is realize that. you know, if we're going to change direction, we first got to get moving. And once we're moving, you know, it's easier to turn the big rock and head it in the right direction. But at the moment, we're just, we're against a movable object. And we need someone that's in there that's going to start the things moving and heading us in the right direction. And there was, you know, it's that. I think it's a Winston Churchill saying it's this idea that, you know, people have been saying for so long that, you know, we're doing our best. Well that's not enough. You've got to do what needs to be done. You can't just keep saying, oh, we're doing our best and we're going to forgive you for that. You know, that's not enough. You know, we need to do more than just do our best. You know, we actually have to make a difference.

mykeljon winckel: And look I couldn't agree with you more and one thing I'd like to add I like your stand on and I think a lot of people will like that a Accountability for crime I would you know and I think it'd be also if we can add to that, you know accountability for our politicians as well, you know, because I mean they're getting away with murder really

Casey Costello: And that's why people have to be worried about co-governance. Because the reality is you're going to have people that aren't elected that we can't get rid of. And you can

mykeljon winckel: frightening.

Casey Costello: laudable intention of everybody having a voice and everybody. Well, that's what democracy is. And they complain about, oh, that's the tyranny of the majority. Well, I'd suggest the tyranny of the majority is a heck of a lot better than the tyranny of the minority. and because we've seen how badly that can go so you know I'm all for it for that you know we you know the good of the many you know you've

mykeljon winckel: Absolutely,

Casey Costello: got to

mykeljon winckel: that

Casey Costello: you've

mykeljon winckel: is

Casey Costello: got

mykeljon winckel: democracy.

Casey Costello: to protect that yep

mykeljon winckel: Now, as I said to you earlier, we're talking about the therapeutics bill that's just been passed. Personally, I think it's a horrific piece of legislation. What do you think about it?

Casey Costello: I couldn't say it better than Shane said last night. He said that'll be going in the hangi by Friday,

mykeljon winckel: Ha

Casey Costello: once

mykeljon winckel: ha

Casey Costello: we're on.

mykeljon winckel: ha.

Casey Costello: So,

mykeljon winckel: Good old Shane. He's got some good sayings. I've interviewed

Casey Costello: yeah,

mykeljon winckel: him

Casey Costello: yep.

mykeljon winckel: a couple of times and

Casey Costello: Yep.

mykeljon winckel: my gosh, I tell you what, it's hard to get a word in. I've got to say

Casey Costello: Hehehehe

mykeljon winckel: Casey, but he's got some beauties. Had me

Casey Costello: Yeah.

mykeljon winckel: in fits of laughter. You know.

Casey Costello: And that's, you know, it's, you know, it's not that, you know, we're getting a whole lot of fancy speak and, you know, very, you know, intelligent. But, you know, this is going to be a fight and we need some muscle. We need some people that are prepared to roll up their sleeves and fight back. And it's going to take more than, you know, clever. speeches and rhetoric, it's going to take some muscle.

mykeljon winckel: Oh yeah.

Casey Costello: And I think, you know, when you're going into something like this, you know, you need a bit of mongrel, you need a bit of fight, and that's what we need.

mykeljon winckel: Absolutely, I mean you can vote socialism in right, but how do you get it out? The only way to get it out is fighting I mean

Casey Costello: Yeah.

mykeljon winckel: history is showing where is that worked? I Mean where

Casey Costello: and

mykeljon winckel: on earth where has it ever worked?

Casey Costello: Yep, and you consistently get the argument that it's, you know, oh, they haven't done it properly. Well, they've tried enough times and it's never been done right.

mykeljon winckel: No,

Casey Costello: But

mykeljon winckel: it's ended badly.

Casey Costello: it's the willingness to, you know, and I think that's one of the things I've learned, you know, seven years of campaigning for equality before the law and fighting on this issue. You know, I've got pretty thick skin and I'm pretty determined and I'm not going to back down. And that was my decision to take the fight to Parliament. You know, I've done it. I've sat there and asked and pleaded and banged on doors and, you know, talk to people and look where we've got to. So, yeah, that's why I'm taking the fight to Parliament. And I just, I really hope that resonates with the voters and that, you know. We, you know, the definition of insanity, you always do what you've always done, you always get what you always got.

mykeljon winckel: Yeah.

Casey Costello: You know, we

mykeljon winckel: Well

Casey Costello: need to do more.

mykeljon winckel: Casey, I don't think you can ask more than, you know, if you're talking about accountability and common sense, It's been lost. This government currently, they don't listen to the people. You saw what happened in Wellington in New Zealand's biggest demonstration earlier this year. Sorry, last year now. Not one MP came down to talk to the people. I mean, that was frightening. That was honestly disgusting. I mean, I could not believe that not one MP would come down and talk to the people that put them into power. I just blew me away.

Casey Costello: And

mykeljon winckel: So, common sense.

Casey Costello: it was so foreign to, you know, I ran security at Parliament for a number of years. And the foundation principle is that we have an open and accessible Parliament, that we have the ability to speak to our representatives. And that was a big thing around maintaining security at Parliament, was that you had to make sure that the people had access and that, you know, I oversaw a huge number of protests. I never saw anything handled like that. It just was bizarre to me. And that's kind of a real wake-up call for where we're heading as a country. And I've seen politicians to engage with just, you know, bizarre situations where it was just how we are as a parliament, that we respect the rights of people to protest and be heard and be seen. And the more you turn your backs on voters, the more I think that you escalate the situation and make it harder and harder for people to have trust and faith in what's going on. So

mykeljon winckel: What

Casey Costello: you know,

mykeljon winckel: are

Casey Costello: and

mykeljon winckel: you, what are you, what are you called?

Casey Costello: Winston was the one that took Trevor Mallard to court. So. Ha ha ha.

mykeljon winckel: Yeah, well, but you know, the thing is, what kind of democracy is that? That is not democracy.

Casey Costello: It's interesting just to dwell on that, the interview that you heard from the ACT party today was this discussion around what New Zealand First did in 2017 and how they can't be trusted and all this sort of stuff. That was democracy at work. They had a manifesto from the people that voted them in there. And they went to Labour and they went to National. and they said, this is what we want to deliver, and National wouldn't negotiate, and Labour would. They were representing the people that voted them. They said, this is what we want to deliver, and who's going to work with us? And National said no, and they're now being criticised for doing exactly that, barely representing the voice of the people that voted them in there. And this idea that National was the... the shining light of democracy. I mean, National gave us the Marine and Coastal Area Act. They surrendered our coastline to claims that we'll be fighting for the next three decades. They signed us up to UNDRIP. You know, people have figured, this is

mykeljon winckel: Uh...

Casey Costello: the stuff, you know? And that accountability, that willing to hand on heart, say, this is what the people who voted me in want to get done. How will you support? and to stand back now and have minor parties vilifying a party that stood strongly on the voice of the people that voted them in there. I think we've got to shift our views here a bit.

mykeljon winckel: Well, I'm glad you brought that point up because I mean, that is a common fallacy that is heard around the place that, you know, that it was a one man coup. You know, hang on a second. Who was leading the coup here?

Casey Costello: Mm.

mykeljon winckel: You know, who's wearing the tin hat on this occasion? Well, it wasn't, you know, well, we've covered it off.

Casey Costello: Yeah. Yep, yeah Shane's, I think he just said it beautifully, he'll be in the hangi by Friday so.

mykeljon winckel: Yeah, yeah, I think that's good. Now also, what about this co-governance? You're gonna fight that.

Casey Costello: Oh, absolutely. Absolutely. And not only fight that, but fight this distortion of the Treaty in the first place, to actually go back to, you know, this isn't what we signed up to. This isn't, you know, it was an impressive document under which we formed a nation. And that's what we're not going to allow them to do. We're not going to allow them to continue to weaponize the Treaty, to push a particular political narrative. We want to actually deliver better outcomes for everyone, including Māori. And not one of these guys has produced one better outcome with all their narrative. There hasn't been one better outcome. And if there was, you know, the statistics would be showing. And we've had decades of this, you know, heading towards this direction. And now we're kind of, you know, we're going to create a separate government. And they stand on the shoulders of the very people they're claiming to represent and hold them down by pushing this narrative. They're actually using that victimhood in order to retain relevance and importance, and they're not delivering a single better outcome. You know, and when you see the harm, when you see the pain and the suffering that this narrative is causing, you know, it's time to call foul. You know, this is... you're not allowed to do that anymore. You actually have to represent better interests. And you do that by advocating for those who are most in need, not by race. That's just abhorrent.

mykeljon winckel: Couldn't agree more, 100%. And on that note, I wanna ask one more question and we're gonna wind it up because I'm enjoying this too much. Can we talk more, Casey? Because there's

Casey Costello: Oh,

mykeljon winckel: so

Casey Costello: welcome,

mykeljon winckel: much stuff we

Casey Costello: yeah.

mykeljon winckel: can unpack. Really, there is so much stuff we can get into. Improving the lives of our seniors. That's one thing that I've had elderly parents in the past. And one of the things that I found, how can someone who's paid their tax all their life, they've been good citizens, they get paid how much to live on? They can't live on it.

Casey Costello: And it's even worse than just the amount of money. It's that we're not, at conference, they had Catherine Rich speak, who's the CEO of Age Concern. And it's not just the money, it's the fact that we're not even producing more facilities to care for those who are in need that can't care for themselves. The dementia facilities, the affordable aged care facilities, we're just not delivering. We've just left them out to dry. So one of the foundation positions for New Zealand First is to actually fund residential care for seniors, to actually get some funding there, because that's horrible. It's just not who we are as a country. This is just awful. You know, we're throwing money around left, right, and center on initiatives, you know, and that is delivering nothing. You know, we had Willie Jackson, who stood up after this year's budget and admitted that the funding that they got for Māori initiatives, he said most Māori aren't affiliated to those organisations that they gave funding to. So where's that money going? And where could it be better used to actually deliver outcomes? Because he's saying most Māori aren't attached to it. So where's the money going? Let's give it back to the people who need, who are in the most need. And that's what we've got to get back to. Need, not race. And

mykeljon winckel: 100%.

Casey Costello: that's, you know, residential homes is massive, you know, more beds, more facilities, because that's how we should be assessed as a society on how we care for our most in need and most vulnerable, not on our cultural sensitivities but on our actual care for the needy.

mykeljon winckel: Totally. One of the things that amazed me was through this whole COVID crisis, how many new beds were put in? I mean, just

Casey Costello: How much more

mykeljon winckel: let's

Casey Costello: capacity?

mykeljon winckel: look at that. How

Casey Costello: Yeah.

mykeljon winckel: much more capacity, right?

Casey Costello: Yeah, nothing.

mykeljon winckel: Nothing. So crickets,

Casey Costello: Hehehehe

mykeljon winckel: it's coming back to crickets again, isn't it? You know?

Casey Costello: Yep.

mykeljon winckel: And I think people are really tired of paying tax and not having a say in where that tax is being spent. I think they've had a guts full.

Casey Costello: And yeah, and that's the part is about seeing outcomes, seeing deliverables, no more rhetoric. And that's, they're entitled to see it. And somebody has to be there to, you know, shine the big flashlight in the dark corners and go, hang on, what's in here? And I don't think there's

mykeljon winckel: And

Casey Costello: anybody there that's prepared to do it.

mykeljon winckel: And not only that, to having realistic outcomes, you know, realistic inputs. I mean, you can't have outcomes based on falsified inputs, right? I mean, was anyone around in 1840 now?

Casey Costello: We've got to

mykeljon winckel: I

Casey Costello: look

mykeljon winckel: mean, seriously.

Casey Costello: and that's what the Rapaera Nanata said,

mykeljon winckel: I mean...

Casey Costello: you know, the whole idea he said, you know, the centenary of the signing of the Treaty that we need to, you know, we need to look forward, we need to work shoulder to shoulder and walk forward together and

mykeljon winckel: as

Casey Costello: that's

mykeljon winckel: one people.

Casey Costello: as one people and we've lost that and when we, if we can't come together and find out better solutions. You know, we're lost. And there's a lot of common ground. There's a lot of things that we agree on. You know, we're a nation that, you know, we're an underdog nation. We want to see everyone succeed. We want to lift people up. And

mykeljon winckel: Well,

Casey Costello: we've got to get there.

mykeljon winckel: I'd like to summarize and say that we need to concentrate more on what joins us together as opposed to what keeps us apart.

Casey Costello: Yeah, exactly.

mykeljon winckel: You know,

Casey Costello: And

mykeljon winckel: and I think that's

Casey Costello: we've

mykeljon winckel: a

Casey Costello: got

mykeljon winckel: really,

Casey Costello: to...

mykeljon winckel: that's a big bridge.

Casey Costello: Yeah. And we've got to, like, one of the things I say, we can't have any more fear. Like we can't be silenced because we're afraid of being called racist. We can't be silenced or afraid to say what needs to be said because it might offend someone. We just, you know, we grow and we benefit from having debates and come up with good solutions and not be afraid of saying what needs to be said.

mykeljon winckel: Well, that's what we're doing right now. It's free speech. We've got to have free speech. It's the cornerstone of a healthy society. And we at elocalmagazine and voicemedia.nz, which are our platforms, we are advocates and we practice free speech. Do no harm. That's the number one rule.

Casey Costello: Yeah.

mykeljon winckel: On that note, Casey, it's been really fantastic chatting with you. I've really enjoyed our conversation and looking forward to our next one. And we're going to be looking forward to seeing, you know, you casing the steps down there at Parliament House. Congratulations

Casey Costello: Yep and just

mykeljon winckel: once again.

Casey Costello: if anybody in Port Wai Kata, if you see me wandering around, please come up and have a chat. I'm not afraid of the discussion so if there's anything you disagree with or you want to hear more about, I'm more than happy to have the chat.

mykeljon winckel: Fantastic. And now, where can people reach you on email?

Casey Costello: So it's Casey.Gostello at NZFirst.NZ. Yeah, and I'm on there quite a lot. So,

mykeljon winckel: Excellent.

Casey Costello: yeah, I'm happy to engage and talk to people because yeah, that's why I'm doing this.

mykeljon winckel: Fantastic. Once again, thanks, Casey, and we'll see you next time.

Casey Costello: Thank

mykeljon winckel: Thanks, everybody,

Casey Costello: you.

mykeljon winckel: for joining us again on Free Speech Space with MJ. And we're looking forward to having Casey back one more time, or maybe two more times. Who even knows? We've enjoyed this. Bye for now.